Well, the post I was working on just got punted for a later date. Joe Huffman and Sebastian started it and we're all piling on. I'll save my thought exercise for a future date and chime in my thoughts on the subject.
The topic of discussion is what would you do if gun confiscation actually happened in this country. If they really went and said "Turn them all in.". As always, it brings out some wondeful comments. Some would turn them in, ammo first, others would comply and hide an off-the-books gun for a rainy day for when the Second American Revolution was underway and join in.
As Joe says, much of this is a victory in the mind, a fantasy to placate ourselves. At the end of it all, the vast majority of us would comply. Why? Joe points to the answer on his own postings on the subject and it is a simple answer. We would comply because we are law-abiding citizens and would wish to remain so. Our own strong moral imperatives instilled in us since childhood cause us to want to do the right thing even if we would find compliance morally repugnant or distasteful.
Because of our desire to stay within the bounds of the law in order to preserve our rights/privileges, we would obey. After all, we can't be agents for change in a legal sense if we ourselves aren't law-abiding in our own right. Any standing you would have in the gun rights community, especially at the political level, would be immediately lost if it were revealed you had been convicted of a firearms related offense no matter how trivial. So we avoid it all cost.
Now more down-to-earth: What would I do?
I would comply within the letter of the law.
Let me state for the record that I tend towards the "cold, dead hands" mentality and ideals. I do believe the right of self-defense is absolute and that citizens should be allowed to pursue legal, if politically incorrect for the times, activities unmolested.
Having said that, if I received notice or a knock on my door to turn in X, Y and Z guns because they had been banned and subject to confiscation, I would turn them in. If the police showed up with 6 4473 forms in their hands, the 6 firearms on those forms would be leaving with them.
Yes, I would be mad as hell. I find the idea of "ex post facto" laws and the subsequent taking of property under them to be a flagrant undercutting the of the ideals this nation is founded upon. But I would comply. As I state above, my moral compass would demand it of me.
With a caveat, I will do what is required of me under the letter of the law. I will not offer up information against my own self-interest or assist those empowered with enforcing it beyond what I have to. If I don't have to let them in and just bring the guns to them, that is what I will do.
Allow me an example of what I mean and this is a present situation.
Maryland has registration for handguns and certain classes of long guns and I own both types. If you purchase such a gun in this state, your gun is automatically registered with the State Police. You have no choice in the matter. And the law doesn't allow a Maryland resident to purchase these regulated firearms out-of-state unless they are transferred to an in-state dealer to be subject to the Maryland waiting period and aforementioned registration.
What about if you move into Maryland from another state like Virginia without such laws? Unlike California, you can move into Maryland possessing firearms that would normally be subject to registration by the State.
Except in that case, there is an exemption crafted into the law. If you owned or possessed handguns or these certain long guns prior to moving into the state, you don't have to register them with the State Police. You have the option to do so but only a moron would do so if they had a choice in the matter.
When I moved here, I went to find out if I had a choice because the information on the State Police website was somewhat contradictory on the requirements.
During this process, I made it clear to my fiancee that if I had to register my guns with the State of Maryland, they would not be entering the State of Maryland. This she couldn't understand. You see, I abhor gun registration. I abhor it on principle and I will do things strictly on principle even if I find it damn inconvenient.
If my guns were subject to registration in Maryland, I would leave them out of Maryland. Not one word would be spoken if I had to rent a storage unit somewhere to store them or leave them with a friend. She felt my willingness to do this to be out-of-proportion to the nature of the act. Just submit to registration and save the money but at the same time, if keeping them out-of-state made me happy on principle, so be it.
As long as I had a choice of what law I had to comply with, I will take the one that doesn't place me in the position to do so. I would not register my guns with the state as long as there was always an option not to do so no matter what it took. Even if the guns had to stay in a safe 1000 miles away in the wildness, registration would not happen as long as I could stop it.
As it turned out, such registration is voluntary for such "out-of-state" legally acquired guns prior to moving into the State. So the guns came with me and the State has no idea I have them unless they get their hands on the 4473s used in purchasing them from their state of origin.
But I do have one gun the State does know about. Because I purchased it after I moved here and I complied with the letter of the law. And if they came for it, they would get it.
As a potential future citizen of this country, I will not break the law even if it conflicts with my principles. But as long as there is a choice to me to do so by not complying here by doing something somewhere else, I will. Short of Federal confiscation and registration that was funded and enforced equally on all the States, I will comply with the law until I run out of options.
At its simplest, if the gun can be legally stored elsewhere when they come for it, it will be elsewhere. If the law doesn't include accessories or ammo, they don't get those. Those will be elsewhere as well. If the law specifies these as well, whatever is on their list, they will get it.
I will follow the letter of the law.
Does this make me a sellout? No, I don't think so. At some point, the law may take things from you but your principles remain. I would rather stand disarmed knowing I gave it my all to prevent it right up to the edges of the law. If I have to make the police and officials run rings across several States to find the stuff they are looking for, so be it. My attitude is they've earned it. I'm not going to make it easy on them and if I consume their time and our tax dollars to make it happen, it is worth it.
The only way that would change is if armed insurrection is under way. As to what I would do then, I cannot answer and I don't think any of us can. Circumstances would dictate what we would have to do for ourselves and our families. Even principles and obeying the law may have to give way to survivial issues. If my registered but unconfiscated gun was my only defense against rebels controlling my city, I will probably fight to keep it. Or find a way to keep a gun that legally doesn't exist. Too many scenarios to comtemplate and until faced with the reality, it is a thought exercise only.
I will deeply respect anyone willing to lay their life on the line for their principles. I would do so myself. There are things I feel strongly enough about that I would die for them. If my only option was slavery on my knees and I saw them dragging the chains towards me, yes, I would prefer to die standing up, a smoking rifle next to my body. But it would have to be the concrete slavery that we could see and recognize. A slavery we were fighting against in the purest guerrilla sense.
Same would apply if I was being told, "Convert or die!" in a religious sense. On this, I wouldn't need a revolution. If there was a cleric and his goons on my doorstep delivering me that ultimatum, I guarantee there'd be at least one dead cleric before they got to me. I will not live under theocratic totalitarian rule if I have no other choice. I'll die first and I'll take some of them with me. I'd rather die as the last free man on Earth than be their final convert.
I don't think makes me a traitor to gun rights. It would take extraordinary events for me to break the moral compass that guides me. I'd literally have to have nothing left to lose and no one around me that my actions could affect save for my conscience. As long as there are those who depend on me or care for me, I have to act in a matter beftitting them as well as myself. Even those tax evaders who declared to fight to the death in New Hampshire wound up in handcuffs rather than coffins.
I won't be part of the 5%. I will honor you, remember you and respect you to the ends of the Earth. You will be a martyr to my cause. But I will not be one of you.
I'm sorry.
The topic of discussion is what would you do if gun confiscation actually happened in this country. If they really went and said "Turn them all in.". As always, it brings out some wondeful comments. Some would turn them in, ammo first, others would comply and hide an off-the-books gun for a rainy day for when the Second American Revolution was underway and join in.
As Joe says, much of this is a victory in the mind, a fantasy to placate ourselves. At the end of it all, the vast majority of us would comply. Why? Joe points to the answer on his own postings on the subject and it is a simple answer. We would comply because we are law-abiding citizens and would wish to remain so. Our own strong moral imperatives instilled in us since childhood cause us to want to do the right thing even if we would find compliance morally repugnant or distasteful.
Because of our desire to stay within the bounds of the law in order to preserve our rights/privileges, we would obey. After all, we can't be agents for change in a legal sense if we ourselves aren't law-abiding in our own right. Any standing you would have in the gun rights community, especially at the political level, would be immediately lost if it were revealed you had been convicted of a firearms related offense no matter how trivial. So we avoid it all cost.
Now more down-to-earth: What would I do?
I would comply within the letter of the law.
Let me state for the record that I tend towards the "cold, dead hands" mentality and ideals. I do believe the right of self-defense is absolute and that citizens should be allowed to pursue legal, if politically incorrect for the times, activities unmolested.
Having said that, if I received notice or a knock on my door to turn in X, Y and Z guns because they had been banned and subject to confiscation, I would turn them in. If the police showed up with 6 4473 forms in their hands, the 6 firearms on those forms would be leaving with them.
Yes, I would be mad as hell. I find the idea of "ex post facto" laws and the subsequent taking of property under them to be a flagrant undercutting the of the ideals this nation is founded upon. But I would comply. As I state above, my moral compass would demand it of me.
With a caveat, I will do what is required of me under the letter of the law. I will not offer up information against my own self-interest or assist those empowered with enforcing it beyond what I have to. If I don't have to let them in and just bring the guns to them, that is what I will do.
Allow me an example of what I mean and this is a present situation.
Maryland has registration for handguns and certain classes of long guns and I own both types. If you purchase such a gun in this state, your gun is automatically registered with the State Police. You have no choice in the matter. And the law doesn't allow a Maryland resident to purchase these regulated firearms out-of-state unless they are transferred to an in-state dealer to be subject to the Maryland waiting period and aforementioned registration.
What about if you move into Maryland from another state like Virginia without such laws? Unlike California, you can move into Maryland possessing firearms that would normally be subject to registration by the State.
Except in that case, there is an exemption crafted into the law. If you owned or possessed handguns or these certain long guns prior to moving into the state, you don't have to register them with the State Police. You have the option to do so but only a moron would do so if they had a choice in the matter.
When I moved here, I went to find out if I had a choice because the information on the State Police website was somewhat contradictory on the requirements.
During this process, I made it clear to my fiancee that if I had to register my guns with the State of Maryland, they would not be entering the State of Maryland. This she couldn't understand. You see, I abhor gun registration. I abhor it on principle and I will do things strictly on principle even if I find it damn inconvenient.
If my guns were subject to registration in Maryland, I would leave them out of Maryland. Not one word would be spoken if I had to rent a storage unit somewhere to store them or leave them with a friend. She felt my willingness to do this to be out-of-proportion to the nature of the act. Just submit to registration and save the money but at the same time, if keeping them out-of-state made me happy on principle, so be it.
As long as I had a choice of what law I had to comply with, I will take the one that doesn't place me in the position to do so. I would not register my guns with the state as long as there was always an option not to do so no matter what it took. Even if the guns had to stay in a safe 1000 miles away in the wildness, registration would not happen as long as I could stop it.
As it turned out, such registration is voluntary for such "out-of-state" legally acquired guns prior to moving into the State. So the guns came with me and the State has no idea I have them unless they get their hands on the 4473s used in purchasing them from their state of origin.
But I do have one gun the State does know about. Because I purchased it after I moved here and I complied with the letter of the law. And if they came for it, they would get it.
As a potential future citizen of this country, I will not break the law even if it conflicts with my principles. But as long as there is a choice to me to do so by not complying here by doing something somewhere else, I will. Short of Federal confiscation and registration that was funded and enforced equally on all the States, I will comply with the law until I run out of options.
At its simplest, if the gun can be legally stored elsewhere when they come for it, it will be elsewhere. If the law doesn't include accessories or ammo, they don't get those. Those will be elsewhere as well. If the law specifies these as well, whatever is on their list, they will get it.
I will follow the letter of the law.
Does this make me a sellout? No, I don't think so. At some point, the law may take things from you but your principles remain. I would rather stand disarmed knowing I gave it my all to prevent it right up to the edges of the law. If I have to make the police and officials run rings across several States to find the stuff they are looking for, so be it. My attitude is they've earned it. I'm not going to make it easy on them and if I consume their time and our tax dollars to make it happen, it is worth it.
The only way that would change is if armed insurrection is under way. As to what I would do then, I cannot answer and I don't think any of us can. Circumstances would dictate what we would have to do for ourselves and our families. Even principles and obeying the law may have to give way to survivial issues. If my registered but unconfiscated gun was my only defense against rebels controlling my city, I will probably fight to keep it. Or find a way to keep a gun that legally doesn't exist. Too many scenarios to comtemplate and until faced with the reality, it is a thought exercise only.
I will deeply respect anyone willing to lay their life on the line for their principles. I would do so myself. There are things I feel strongly enough about that I would die for them. If my only option was slavery on my knees and I saw them dragging the chains towards me, yes, I would prefer to die standing up, a smoking rifle next to my body. But it would have to be the concrete slavery that we could see and recognize. A slavery we were fighting against in the purest guerrilla sense.
Same would apply if I was being told, "Convert or die!" in a religious sense. On this, I wouldn't need a revolution. If there was a cleric and his goons on my doorstep delivering me that ultimatum, I guarantee there'd be at least one dead cleric before they got to me. I will not live under theocratic totalitarian rule if I have no other choice. I'll die first and I'll take some of them with me. I'd rather die as the last free man on Earth than be their final convert.
I don't think makes me a traitor to gun rights. It would take extraordinary events for me to break the moral compass that guides me. I'd literally have to have nothing left to lose and no one around me that my actions could affect save for my conscience. As long as there are those who depend on me or care for me, I have to act in a matter beftitting them as well as myself. Even those tax evaders who declared to fight to the death in New Hampshire wound up in handcuffs rather than coffins.
I won't be part of the 5%. I will honor you, remember you and respect you to the ends of the Earth. You will be a martyr to my cause. But I will not be one of you.
I'm sorry.
4 comments:
Being a combat vet of the 1991 Gulf War and Bosnia, I know war is not pleasant. Even less pleasant is guerrilla warfare and one you are going to eventually loose.
With this said, I was once willing to lay down my life for the Constitution before, I would have no problem doing this again. Only in the most dire of straits
Sorry, I did not spell check it first, so had to delet it.
I would show them a bill of sale to a person who died within the last year. If they think i shouldn't own that weapon, that means i should own it. Cause soon i may need it.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
Something to think about.
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